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	<title>Comments for from holland with love</title>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by Sandra</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 15:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-178</guid>
		<description>Basically, I&#039;m letting my girls enjoy the holiday just as other Dutch children do. They did not grow up in America or someplace else with the racial tensions between b&amp;w as I did. I don&#039;t want to brand them with the memories of civil rights struggle that I have, or instill in them the healthy skeptisicm I have in racial sensitive moments. When they&#039;re older, I will absolutely teach them the history of African-Americans, just as surely as they will learn about their father&#039;s heritage &amp; culture from living it.
I won&#039;t hide it from them, but I won&#039;t beat them over the head with it either.

For now, it&#039;s enough for me to watch them getting all excited, waking us up at the butt crack of dawn to see what the Sint &amp; Pieten brought for them overnight. I reminds me of how nuts we were as kids on the 25th. 
They don&#039;t have Santa Claus the way we do in the US, so this is it for them.
Moms militant side will have to be &#039;at-ease&#039; for the time being. Cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Basically, I&#8217;m letting my girls enjoy the holiday just as other Dutch children do. They did not grow up in America or someplace else with the racial tensions between b&amp;w as I did. I don&#8217;t want to brand them with the memories of civil rights struggle that I have, or instill in them the healthy skeptisicm I have in racial sensitive moments. When they&#8217;re older, I will absolutely teach them the history of African-Americans, just as surely as they will learn about their father&#8217;s heritage &amp; culture from living it.<br />
I won&#8217;t hide it from them, but I won&#8217;t beat them over the head with it either.</p>
<p>For now, it&#8217;s enough for me to watch them getting all excited, waking us up at the butt crack of dawn to see what the Sint &amp; Pieten brought for them overnight. I reminds me of how nuts we were as kids on the 25th.<br />
They don&#8217;t have Santa Claus the way we do in the US, so this is it for them.<br />
Moms militant side will have to be &#8216;at-ease&#8217; for the time being. Cool.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by meekins</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-177</link>
		<dc:creator>meekins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-177</guid>
		<description>Sandra, it&#039;s great to finally read the opinion of this matter from a black person!

I&#039;m not American but am Australian, however I&#039;m sure our countries generally share opinions/feelings about this kind of topic.

I&#039;m surprised that you&#039;re the first black person I&#039;ve come across who is speaking out about how they find ZP offensive! I guess it&#039;s mostly white people speaking out because we feel guilty for our racist past and are trying to be more sensitive.

What a difficult decision re your daughters! I&#039;m not sure how I would handle this situation. Which choice did you end up making?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandra, it&#8217;s great to finally read the opinion of this matter from a black person!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not American but am Australian, however I&#8217;m sure our countries generally share opinions/feelings about this kind of topic.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised that you&#8217;re the first black person I&#8217;ve come across who is speaking out about how they find ZP offensive! I guess it&#8217;s mostly white people speaking out because we feel guilty for our racist past and are trying to be more sensitive.</p>
<p>What a difficult decision re your daughters! I&#8217;m not sure how I would handle this situation. Which choice did you end up making?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by meekins</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-176</link>
		<dc:creator>meekins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-176</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious, could you please paste the link of where you found it here?

I understand it&#039;s probably quite difficult for someone who grew up in The Netherlands to find Zwarte Piet offensive.

&quot;So if there is a demand for it the tradition should and can change&quot;

So you do feel it should change, how come?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious, could you please paste the link of where you found it here?</p>
<p>I understand it&#8217;s probably quite difficult for someone who grew up in The Netherlands to find Zwarte Piet offensive.</p>
<p>&#8220;So if there is a demand for it the tradition should and can change&#8221;</p>
<p>So you do feel it should change, how come?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by Sandra</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-175</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-175</guid>
		<description>Hey Meekin, how disappointing to read at the end that you&#039;re not living here anymore. I was hoping to talk to another like-minded American! 

I&#039;m a black woman living in The Netherlands for 7 yrs now, and I&#039;m still bothered by ZP. I would love to just go home for the holidays, but since Sinterklaas is on the 5th, they begin in early Nov with ads, ZP downtown, on TV, etc. I&#039;d have to be gone for two months! I have told just about everybody I know here how that character makes me feel, and have gotten pretty much the same diversity of comments you&#039;ve received on your post. My Dutch husband &#039;sort of&#039; understands now.
The most important comment I read above was Wesley&#039;s post about the indoctrination of children. You can mold a child to believe anything is good, bad, or indifferent. The fact that Dutch people grew up with ZP being a sweet guy is why they don&#039;t &#039;get it&#039;. The fact that they have absolutely NO idea of what black-face was, what it meant, or the consequences of black people being portrayed as buffoons for so many years, is also a reason I have decided to give them a temporary &#039;pass&#039; on this subject.

I have two beautiful little girls here, and I had to make a decision to either:
1) leave town with them for two months
2) teach them that ZP is not PC
 2a) try to avoid ZP with them, i.e. have them taken out of the class when ZP  comes with gifts, therefore making them the &#039;weird&#039; half American kids 
3) swallow my &#039;colored&#039; thoughts for 60 days a year and let my kids have fun.

Well the choice was easy. I still have the urge to punch ZP in the grill when he approaches us in the city, but so far, I&#039;ve abstained from physical violence.

The things we do for our kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Meekin, how disappointing to read at the end that you&#8217;re not living here anymore. I was hoping to talk to another like-minded American! </p>
<p>I&#8217;m a black woman living in The Netherlands for 7 yrs now, and I&#8217;m still bothered by ZP. I would love to just go home for the holidays, but since Sinterklaas is on the 5th, they begin in early Nov with ads, ZP downtown, on TV, etc. I&#8217;d have to be gone for two months! I have told just about everybody I know here how that character makes me feel, and have gotten pretty much the same diversity of comments you&#8217;ve received on your post. My Dutch husband &#8217;sort of&#8217; understands now.<br />
The most important comment I read above was Wesley&#8217;s post about the indoctrination of children. You can mold a child to believe anything is good, bad, or indifferent. The fact that Dutch people grew up with ZP being a sweet guy is why they don&#8217;t &#8216;get it&#8217;. The fact that they have absolutely NO idea of what black-face was, what it meant, or the consequences of black people being portrayed as buffoons for so many years, is also a reason I have decided to give them a temporary &#8216;pass&#8217; on this subject.</p>
<p>I have two beautiful little girls here, and I had to make a decision to either:<br />
1) leave town with them for two months<br />
2) teach them that ZP is not PC<br />
 2a) try to avoid ZP with them, i.e. have them taken out of the class when ZP  comes with gifts, therefore making them the &#8216;weird&#8217; half American kids<br />
3) swallow my &#8216;colored&#8217; thoughts for 60 days a year and let my kids have fun.</p>
<p>Well the choice was easy. I still have the urge to punch ZP in the grill when he approaches us in the city, but so far, I&#8217;ve abstained from physical violence.</p>
<p>The things we do for our kids.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by Michael</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-174</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-174</guid>
		<description>A link to your post is on Facebook, that&#039;s how I got here and maybe others as well.
The debate returns every year.
Personaly I don&#039;t mind the traditon; I grew up in Amsterdam, had many diferent cultures in my class in school and as a kid I never thought of Zwarte Piet as of an African, he just doesn&#039;t look like one! 
But the tradition is very flexible; that steamship Sinterklaas traditionally arives on is course not a madieval tradition, Zwarte Piet came about in the 19th century, and the use of many Zwarte Pieten is even from after world war II. So if there is a demand for it the tradition should and can change; It always has. Problem is people tend to see traditions as something extremely old an static.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A link to your post is on Facebook, that&#8217;s how I got here and maybe others as well.<br />
The debate returns every year.<br />
Personaly I don&#8217;t mind the traditon; I grew up in Amsterdam, had many diferent cultures in my class in school and as a kid I never thought of Zwarte Piet as of an African, he just doesn&#8217;t look like one!<br />
But the tradition is very flexible; that steamship Sinterklaas traditionally arives on is course not a madieval tradition, Zwarte Piet came about in the 19th century, and the use of many Zwarte Pieten is even from after world war II. So if there is a demand for it the tradition should and can change; It always has. Problem is people tend to see traditions as something extremely old an static.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by meekins</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-173</link>
		<dc:creator>meekins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-173</guid>
		<description>Yep Michael, I&#039;m aware that Sinterklaas avond and Christmas are two different holidays, I didn&#039;t communicate that effectively and have already been picked up on this several times.

Thanks for the extra info, always good to know other sources of Piet&#039;s origin.

By the way, do you know why there is a sudden influx (influx may be a little extreme) of interest in my post a year later? Is there another big debate on expatica?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep Michael, I&#8217;m aware that Sinterklaas avond and Christmas are two different holidays, I didn&#8217;t communicate that effectively and have already been picked up on this several times.</p>
<p>Thanks for the extra info, always good to know other sources of Piet&#8217;s origin.</p>
<p>By the way, do you know why there is a sudden influx (influx may be a little extreme) of interest in my post a year later? Is there another big debate on expatica?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by Michael</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-172</guid>
		<description>&quot;Traditionally, Christmas (sinterklaasavond) is celebrated on the 5th of December in The Netherlands&quot;
That&#039;s not true Sinterklaas &amp; Christmas are two different holidays.

Regarding Zwarte Piet; this is what&#039;s on Wikipedia:

&quot;Zwarte Piet,&quot; Sinterklaas&#039; helping hand Black Pete, has his origin in the bishop&#039;s legendary past. Three small Moorish boys were sentenced to death for a crime they did not commit. The bishop intervened and they were saved. To show their gratitude, the boys stayed with Sinterklaas to help him, tumbling and jumping on rooftops on Sinterklaas night to deliver presents. Their black skin may refer either to their Moorish background, or to the job of chimneysweep, an option is corroborated by their clothes, reminiscent of an Italian chimneysweep&#039;s costume and Pete&#039;s rooftop occupation. Another background story for Pete is that he is the devil who was enslaved by Sinterklaas. Nowadays, children in the Netherlands are told that the Pieten work for Sinterklaas voluntarily and that there is a special school in Spain where they learn their trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Traditionally, Christmas (sinterklaasavond) is celebrated on the 5th of December in The Netherlands&#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s not true Sinterklaas &amp; Christmas are two different holidays.</p>
<p>Regarding Zwarte Piet; this is what&#8217;s on Wikipedia:</p>
<p>&#8220;Zwarte Piet,&#8221; Sinterklaas&#8217; helping hand Black Pete, has his origin in the bishop&#8217;s legendary past. Three small Moorish boys were sentenced to death for a crime they did not commit. The bishop intervened and they were saved. To show their gratitude, the boys stayed with Sinterklaas to help him, tumbling and jumping on rooftops on Sinterklaas night to deliver presents. Their black skin may refer either to their Moorish background, or to the job of chimneysweep, an option is corroborated by their clothes, reminiscent of an Italian chimneysweep&#8217;s costume and Pete&#8217;s rooftop occupation. Another background story for Pete is that he is the devil who was enslaved by Sinterklaas. Nowadays, children in the Netherlands are told that the Pieten work for Sinterklaas voluntarily and that there is a special school in Spain where they learn their trade.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by meekins</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>meekins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-171</guid>
		<description>Danielle:  Unfortunately we have now left Holland =( But a year later I feel much less bothered about the whole thing. I guess this was one of the first big things I encountered in Holland and felt the need to &#039;vent&#039; my confusion and opinion. But my basic feelings now are: if black people were all that offended by it, they would speak out about it which they don&#039;t seem to do. Also it really is only intended to be fun, whether people see it as racist or not. If I were still in Holland I don&#039;t think I would attend the parade, it just creeps me out a little still!

Fred: Yeah it&#039;s a good point, using brown face paint removes it a little from the whole &#039;black face&#039; racist comedy. Again, if black people aren&#039;t being offended then there really isn&#039;t so much to worry about! I feel much less strongly about it all a year later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danielle:  Unfortunately we have now left Holland =( But a year later I feel much less bothered about the whole thing. I guess this was one of the first big things I encountered in Holland and felt the need to &#8216;vent&#8217; my confusion and opinion. But my basic feelings now are: if black people were all that offended by it, they would speak out about it which they don&#8217;t seem to do. Also it really is only intended to be fun, whether people see it as racist or not. If I were still in Holland I don&#8217;t think I would attend the parade, it just creeps me out a little still!</p>
<p>Fred: Yeah it&#8217;s a good point, using brown face paint removes it a little from the whole &#8216;black face&#8217; racist comedy. Again, if black people aren&#8217;t being offended then there really isn&#8217;t so much to worry about! I feel much less strongly about it all a year later.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by Fred</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-170</guid>
		<description>ZP is in fact a moor who became a friend of sinterklaaas en decided to help him. That is the story i know, in fact most black people i konw aren&#039;t offended.

ZP is nowadays not even black ( wich they were many years) but they are now brown cause the children accept that more. I however agree with you if ou don&#039;t know the tradition you can see it like mocking the blacks. I play ZP for 6 years now and i never feel like offending the black people i any way. in fact i play ZP in some black families to give them the presents together with Sinterklaas</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ZP is in fact a moor who became a friend of sinterklaaas en decided to help him. That is the story i know, in fact most black people i konw aren&#8217;t offended.</p>
<p>ZP is nowadays not even black ( wich they were many years) but they are now brown cause the children accept that more. I however agree with you if ou don&#8217;t know the tradition you can see it like mocking the blacks. I play ZP for 6 years now and i never feel like offending the black people i any way. in fact i play ZP in some black families to give them the presents together with Sinterklaas</p>
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		<title>Comment on Zwarte Piet: a &#8220;fun&#8221; or racist tradition? by Danielle</title>
		<link>http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/zwarte-piet-a-fun-or-racist-tradition/#comment-169</link>
		<dc:creator>Danielle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fromhollandwithlove.wordpress.com/?p=137#comment-169</guid>
		<description>Yes, democracy and free speech are excellent things!
Just curious what you think of Piet now that you&#039;ve lived in Holland for over a year. Will you attend the Sinterklaas Parade this weekend?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, democracy and free speech are excellent things!<br />
Just curious what you think of Piet now that you&#8217;ve lived in Holland for over a year. Will you attend the Sinterklaas Parade this weekend?</p>
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